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notified body performance

  • 1.  notified body performance

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 10-Dec-2019 17:01
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    It's been 287 days since my MDSAP audit and I still don't have the certificate. Is there a higher authority where I can file a complaint?


  • 2.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 11-Dec-2019 06:11
    First: Wow.

    Second: Sad.

    Third: Already assuming you have tried to work with them getting your certificate, then if you are located in the US, could send a "complaint" into FDA: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/cdrh-international-programs/medical-device-single-audit-program-mdsap.  In addition, the MDSAP Regulatory Authority Council is the group in charge of this.  Not sure how active that group is or who to even contact.  Personally, I think people should be calling out these Auditing Organisations in a public forum with this data - maybe something will change.  Because sadly you are not alone.

    Just as an aside - under the MDSAP they are not Notified Bodies.  These are called Auditing Organisations (AO) under MDSAP.

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    Richard Vincins RAC
    Vice President Global Regulatory Affairs
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  • 3.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 11-Dec-2019 08:09
    I would recommend first, to work with your account manager to understand the delay (assuming you have done this).

    The next step would be to file a complaint with the auditing organization (since they are a supplier, you could also issue a Supplier Corrective Action Request or SCAR).

    Every notified body (auditing organization) has an accreditation body they use to get accredited to audit. If there is no response from your auditing organization, they would be the next step. I'm not sure the MDSAP RAC (or FDA) will be able to help much, but that would be a last resort.

    Good luck!

    ------------------------------
    Regards,
    Mark Swanson, ASQ CBA, CMQ/OE, CQE ASQ, MBA
    Becker MN
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 11-Dec-2019 08:27
    Yeah, I hear you.  Maybe contact the MDSAP AO Accrediting Body, though not sure how or who you would reach.  Anyone else know?

    This is another of my.issues with NBs or other Accredited Organizations.  It is unbelievable how long it takes to issue certs after a successful audit.  If they are not staffed, they don't seem to care that it holds up sales or other registrations because the cert is lacking.

    Another reason for my clients to submit direct to Australia.   

    287 days!!!!, wow.  Pretty outrageous!

    Good luck in your quest.


    ------------------------------
    Ginger Cantor, MBA, RAC
    Founder/Principal Consultant
    Centaur Consulting LLC
    River Falls, Wisconsin 54022 USA
    715-307-1850
    centaurconsultingllc@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: notified body performance

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 11-Dec-2019 11:01
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    ​The Regulatory Authority Council (RAC) is the party that manages the MDSAP program. As of March 8, 2019 the Chairperson is David Boudreau and the Vice Chairman is Kenichi Ishibashi. You may be able to obtain some information by sending an email to MDSAP@fda.hhs.gov


  • 6.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 12-Dec-2019 10:07
    Ah, yes, the MDSAP program, so fully transparent, even those who are seeking certification don't know who is in charge of it.  (Does anyone but me see the irony in the names being posted anonymously?)

    You might try appealing to the deity of your choice.  If that doesn't work for you, you could try going the other way and getting in touch with your lawyer. However, if you signed a contract with no performance contingencies and paid in full up front, the latter might not be able to help you much, and the former might not want to.

    [I have often wondered whether the last three letters of the program's acronym have the same connotation outside the US as they do here, and, further, if the acronym might have been chosen as some kind of inside joke.  If it has indeed become mostly a global program, used by relatively few US companies, perhaps that would explain it.]

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Mebane, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 12-Dec-2019 10:35
    Hi All,

    I'm sorry, but I am not convinced this is completely the fault of the Auditing Organization. My experience is that they follow the process (especially when challenged with a potential complaint). The process outlines completely the timelines associated with responses (they are located on the FDA site here: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/medical-device-single-audit-program-mdsap/mdsap-assessment-procedures-and-forms)

    I suspect there is some middle truth on response to the audit and processing the follow up closure of those responses. If you have an issue with the auditing organization (or a notified body). You should follow the process outlined in your agreement with them BEFORE going beyond.

    Again, I wish you good luck in resolving. Let me know if I can be of any assistance.


    ------------------------------
    Regards,
    Mark Swanson, ASQ CBA, CMQ/OE, CQE ASQ, MBA
    Becker MN
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 12-Dec-2019 15:04
    Thanks for the link, Mark.  I look forward to reviewing these procedures in detail.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Mebane, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 12-Dec-2019 17:18

    Hi Anonymous, 

    That's quite a long time to wait.  It took about 140 days to receive mine last year.  Have you inquired with your auditing organization about the wait?  In my situation I contacted my auditing organization, who then had someone from their certificates department look into it.  They informed me that their MDSAP panel was still reviewing the report, and promised an expedited review once their review was finished.  Once I had nudged them about it, I received the MDSAP certificate in 2 weeks.  

    I agree with Mark - there's a process behind all of this that may not make it the AO's fault for some delays.  In addition to the contacts posted in a previous response, Neil Mafnas is the FDA's MDSAP program coordinator (neil.mafnas@fda.hhs.gov), but I would recommend trying to expedite this through the AO first.

    Best of luck,
    Brittany



    ------------------------------
    Brittany Gibson BSc
    Director, Quality and Regulatory Affairs
    Winnipeg MB
    Canada
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  • 10.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 12-Dec-2019 18:50
    My only wish is that AOs would staff in even their certificates group, to notify customers proactively on what is happening - where the hold up is, rather than making the customer guess.

    We don't know in this case all the transactions between the two, but man if something is that late and you have verbally or otherwise told the client to expect a certificate in 30-60 days.... then proactively call the client and say "I am so sorry to tell you it is delayed at the reviewing board".  and then followup. 

    But AOs, NBs and Regulatory Agencies have all the leverage, so that is not a likely scenario.  Manufacturers do not have the luxury to shop for good customer service. Qualified experts, yes, but often lacking in customer service. 

    (Sigh)

    ------------------------------
    Ginger Cantor, MBA, RAC
    Founder/Principal Consultant
    Centaur Consulting LLC
    River Falls, Wisconsin 54022 USA
    715-307-1850
    centaurconsultingllc@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: notified body performance

    Posted 12-Dec-2019 22:31
    Edited by Julie Omohundro 12-Dec-2019 22:34
    I virtually never use the word "fault" except when discussing earthquakes.  It is a given that no one (including perhaps Anon and perhaps the AO) knows why the certificate has yet to be issued.  However, I've been around enough blocks to know that when a service provider hasn't delivered for over three months, and does so two weeks after being "nudged," it's a virtual guarantee that something went amiss on the service provider's side of things.  Or that they are so out of control, their "deadline" is "within a couple of weeks of the client finally complaining."

    Regardless of promises made, implied, expected, or even imagined, failure to keep customers informed is simply dismal customer service. In a similar situation long ago, my department defined "service failure" as not having delivered on deadline and "catastrophic service failure" as having neither delivered nor contacted the client.  I still observe those definitions.

    I'm not clear on the inability to shop for good customer service, unless you are saying there is none to be found among all the AOs, NBs, and Regulatory Agencies out there.  Certainly there is no option for comparison shopping among NBs in the EU right now, but otherwise, companies have always shopped for AOs and NBs, although often with somewhat different criteria for "good" customer service than good communication, heh.  Companies have also always shopped for regulatory agencies, when selecting which markets to enter and sites for the conduct clinical trials, and one of RA's most important roles has always been to inform this shopping.



    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Mebane, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------