You do not need to mention the hazards while answering the question in the Annex.
However, you should answer them as a team and keep notes about hazards and harms. You will then develop them for the analysis.
Original Message:
Sent: 17-Jun-2022 23:28
From: Amita Pandey
Subject: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
Hello sir,
Thanks for the input.
Ya you are absolutely right. And definately this is informative only and we can add or remove questions applicable to our device.
But the question was different.
The question is do we need to mention hazards while answering the questions?
As there may be many hazards related to one question.
Regards
Original Message:
Sent: 6/17/2022 2:10:00 PM
From: Christopher Erwin
Subject: RE: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
Please note that Annex A of TR/ISO 24971:2020 is intended to be informative, providing guidance on a method for identification of hazards and characteristics related to safety, rather than acting as an exhaustive list. From the guidance, "These lists are neither exhaustive nor representative of all medical devices, and the manufacturer is advised to add questions that can have applicability to the particular medical device and to skip questions that are not relevant. The manufacturer is also advised to consider each question not only on its own but also in relation to others." Here it is important to note that the individual answers to the questions should inform how others are considered, as well as the beginning of consideration for each topic.
Using your example above regarding implantation of a device, A.2.2 calls out additional factors that could result in an impact to safety. The intended use of the device and intended population is likely going to have significant implications regarding relevant hazards (sources of harm). A medical device such as an LVAD is going to be a temporary implant until a patient can receive a transplant, therefore risk related to failure of the device even momentarily can be catastrophic.
It is not sufficient to simply answer the questions, but to also consider why each is important to answer and what other questions can branch out from there.
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Christopher Erwin
Scottsdale AZ
United States
Original Message:
Sent: 17-Jun-2022 12:34
From: Amita Pandey
Subject: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
Thanks sir.
I will definately take the benefit from the guidance provided by you.
Now the question is regarding the "identification of characteristics related to safety of the medical device "
As per 24971 the questionnaire is provided in annexure A.
So is it enough to give the answer or need to list out hazard for each and every question which is applicable for the device?
For ex. Is the device intended to be implanted.
Then answer is 'yes'
Now do we need to write the hazard too.
As the heading of Annexure A is "identification of hazards and characteristics related to safety "
Plz give your input
Original Message:
Sent: 6/15/2022 4:01:00 PM
From: Edwin Bills
Subject: RE: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
No, don't "hope it will all work out", it is risk management science. Follow the steps that have been developed over the last 25+years for medical devices and it WILL WORK.
As we have referred to ISO TR 24971:2020 guidance throughout this discussion, make sure you have the document and USE IT.
We all will be here if you have more questions. If you get a chance, there are some good courses in this area you might want to take, including the AAMI risk management course, for disclosure, I teach that course, and one taught by Peter Sebellius of Medical Device HQ. Peter is on LinkedIn also, as am I. I am the co-Moderator of the Medical Device Risk Management group there as well.
Best Wishes in your journey and if you have questions, just ask!
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Edwin Bills MEd, CQA, RAC, BSc, CQE, ASQ
Principal Consultant
Overland Park KS
United States
elb@edwinbillsconsultant.comPrincipal Consultant
Original Message:
Sent: 15-Jun-2022 12:59
From: Amita Pandey
Subject: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
Ok thanks sir for input.
I hope it will work out.
Regards
Original Message:
Sent: 6/15/2022 12:33:00 PM
From: Edwin Bills
Subject: RE: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
The answer is you put them where they occur and do not overthink the organization of your documents. The standard has a process flow built in, that is identifying hazards, then determining the exposure of these hazards such that harm can occur (this is an important step to understanding not only how harm can occur, but also where you can place risk controls to break the hazard to harm pathway) and then what types of harm can occur to people, property and the environment as a result of THAT EXPOSURE, and don't try to connect Hazardous Situations where no realistic connections occur.
I am a visual learner and like to draw pictures to help me understand the situation. If the picture does not show a connection then don't try to create one. Just document what you have found and stop.
One of the aspects of risk management that is so often overlooked all over the process, is "why are we doing this?". We want to make decisions to reduce risk, and time spent with all this clutter is time wasted from improving our products to improve safety. So don't overthink your documents and their organization where it does not lead to product improvement
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Edwin Bills MEd, CQA, RAC, BSc, CQE, ASQ
Principal Consultant
Member, ISO TC 210 JWG1
Overland Park KS
United States
elb@edwinbillsconsultant.comPrincipal Consultant
Original Message:
Sent: 15-Jun-2022 10:34
From: Amita Pandey
Subject: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
Thanks sir for your reply.
But as the question is regarding probability, if we consider harm for probability definately like probability of occurrence of harm and severity of that harm.
For ex there are multiple hazardous situation for which there is only one harm or may be two which have same severity level.
1. Now the question is if we put single harm in front of single hazardous situation or we can put more than one hazardous situation in one column for single harm.
2. We decide severy and probability for that harm only, now again probability of harm is totally depend on probability of occurrence of hazardous situation.
3. If we put more than hazardous situation in one column with different probability for one harm then again question arises how you set the probability.
4. The above question is before taking risk control measure but after risk control measure how to decide the probability and severity. On the basis of harm ,single harm , more than one hazardous situation in one column. Because we can not reduce probability of harm only can reduce occurrence of hazardous situation.
5. Yes definately on the basis of harm for particular hazardous situation I have to consider.
6. Now again each hazardous situation there must be only single harm which will not create confusion only will make work lengthy, as there are many hazardous situation for one harm. Or more than one harm can be occurred with only one hazardous situation ,it's vice versa.
Really it's quite confusing and auditors ask these Cross question.
Plz reply
Original Message:
Sent: 6/13/2022 5:27:00 PM
From: Edwin Bills
Subject: RE: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
Remember Severity of Harm includes people, property, and the environment. For people, the best choice is a qualitative scale of 4 or 5 levels based on the definitions of severity found in either the FDA Medical Device Reporting regulation 21 CFR 803 such as Critical-fatality or non reversible serious injury; Serious-medically reversible serious injury; Major-injury with minor medical intervention; Moderate-injury not requiring medical intervention; Minor-No injury, or other such description. These descriptions should along with the vigilance reporting systems of FDA, EC, and other regulatory bodies where you distribute product. This alignment will help your pot-market activities align with the design processes and make these processes more seamless.
Based on feed back from the EC, I would avoid setting acceptable regions, as Notified Bodies don't like the use of "Acceptable Risk". The risks must each individually be reduced As Far As Possible without impacting the Benefit to Risk ratio. Notified Bodies think if you have established an Acceptable region, you can stop reducing risk when you reach that region, which does not meet the regulatory requirements. Also in that scheme each risk must be treated individually as to when to stop risk reduction, there is no universal "acceptable" line to cross.
Be sure you have a copy of ISO TR 24971:2020, as most of what has been discussed in this chain is covered in that 85 page guidance document which is a good aid in understanding ISO 14971:2019 and the topics are aligned so if you want more on Clause 5 on Risk Analysis in 14971, then go to Clause 5 in 24971. The Annexes A to the end are cross-cutting topics that cover multiple numbered clauses in the standard.
Wish you the best on this journey, I am starting to understand medical device risk management after 22 years on the standards committee. I am by no means an expert, but I do have contact information for those that know certain aspects of medical device risk management!
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Edwin Bills MEd, CQA, RAC, BSc, CQE, ASQ
Principal Consultant
Member, ISO TC 210 JWG1
Overland Park KS
United States
elb@edwinbillsconsultant.comPrincipal Consultant
Original Message:
Sent: 13-Jun-2022 13:16
From: Dan O'Leary
Subject: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
Remember that the risk of a harm has two components: severity and probability. They are closely related since you need the probability that the harm occurs with the stated severity. A burn provides a good example. The harm could be a burn which has three levels of severity. The probability of a first-degree burn will not be the probability of a second-degree burn, etc.
A common approach is a five-point scale. You need good definitions for the scale so it is easy for the team to agree. Often a medical person can help.
For severity, it is best to start with a five-point scale using definitions and not numbers. Typically, you need a lot of post-market data to use a numerical scale.
The Risk Management Plan will have the severity and probability scales. It will also have a risk matrix that explains how to combine severity and probability to get a risk level. You will need this as part of risk evaluation to determine if the risk is acceptable or requires risk reduction.
If you need risk reduction, start with the sequence of events. They lead to the hazardous situation, so you want to break the sequence. If there is no hazardous situation, there is no harm. Usually, this is hard. Your risk reduction measures should reduce the severity, the probability, or both. For the residual risk, use the same scales and the same risk matrix. You want to get into the best box possible in the risk matrix. You also want that box to be in the acceptable risk region.
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Dan O'Leary CQA, CQE
Swanzey NH
United States
Original Message:
Sent: 13-Jun-2022 11:37
From: Amita Pandey
Subject: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
Hello Den,
Thanks you so much for your answer.
It means need to determine the probability for that harm only.
Not for hazardous situation.
Now it's clear before risk control measure but after risk control measure how to decide probability, I think on the basis of definately Market complaints, feedbacks, literatures, pms data etc.
I hope I am on the right track.
Can you plz let me know what will be the rational for deciding severity. As as per standard I have given given severity from 1 to 5.
Now it time to decide probability, what will be rational for same.
How to explain in my plan to decide probability.
I used 24971 table starting from 1 to 5. Like 10 power -6 , then goes below.
Plz help
Original Message:
Sent: 6/13/2022 10:03:00 AM
From: Dan O'Leary
Subject: RE: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
First, ignore P1 and P2. They only illustrate a concept. They are not required.
Estimate the components of risk using the definition. First determine the harm that occurs if the hazardous situation were to happen. There could be many different harms associated with a hazardous situation. Determine the severity of each harm. Then determine the probability of that harm occurring with the determined severity. Put these values into the risk matrix in the Risk Management Plan to estimate the risk.
There are no calculations required. You could rely on historical data, published articles, registry data, the team's best guess, etc.
In some cases, you cannot estimate the probability such as a use error. In those cases, the risk estimate uses severity only. The Risk Management Plan needs to cover this case.
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Dan O'Leary CQA, CQE
Swanzey NH
United States
Original Message:
Sent: 11-Jun-2022 15:17
From: Anonymous Member
Subject: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
Hello all,
To decide probability is there any simple calculation , as to determine the probability of occurrence of harm is important or mandatory than probability of occurrence of hazardous situation
As for some harm probability can not be established.
Regards
Original Message:
Sent: 02-May-2022 21:24
From: Kevin Randall
Subject: ISO 14971 P2 vs P3
ISO 14971:2019 / EN ISO 14971:2019 and ISO/TR 24971:2020 call P2 the "probability of a hazardous situation leading to harm", whereas they refer to P (i.e., P1 x P2) as the "probability of occurrence of harm". Yet in plain terms, "probability of a hazardous situation leading to harm" (P2) sounds a whole lot like "probability of occurrence of harm" (P). And this seems to be what 24971 section 5.4.7 Figure 1 is saying. So, what's the practical difference between P2 (probability of a hazardous situation leading to harm) and P (probability of occurrence of harm)? 14971 and 24971 don't seem to give clear practical explanation of the difference between these two concepts; both seem to be the same basic thing: probability of occurrence of harm.
For this question, let's assume that there is sufficiently-robust source data to support the decomposition of probability into P1 (PA, PB, PC, etc.) and P2.
Thanks for your help.
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Kevin Randall, ASQ CQA, RAC (Europe, U.S., Canada)
Principal Consultant
Ridgway, CO
United States
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