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Notified Body availability

  • 1.  Notified Body availability

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 08-Oct-2019 17:03
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    We've been monumentally let down today by our new Notified Body.
    Any EU-27 Notified Bodies taking on new clients to MDD/MDR?


  • 2.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 09-Oct-2019 03:11
    Dear Anonymous,
    This happens a lot nowadays. You have several options, the best is that you remain with your current NB and try to solve the issues. Switching to another NB is possible, however in 8 out 10 cases it does not solve the underlying issues. Timing is also not in your favor, there are hardly any NB's that will accept you as new customer. We have been able to find NB's that can handle applications for similar cases, however mostly it is for a premium price. In general, switching NB will lead to an overall 3.5 times increase in costs. Please consider to solve the issues that you have momentarily with your NB. We can help you, we act as moderator. Please contact me for our process & succes rate. 

    Qserve Group
    martin.de.bruin@qservegroup.com

    ------------------------------
    martin.de.bruin@qservegroup.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Notified Body availability

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 09-Oct-2019 09:01
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    Dear Martin,
    The option of remaining with our current NB is not possible as our NB withdrew their NB MDD/MDR services...
    Best regards.


  • 4.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 09-Oct-2019 12:11
    Hello Anon
    Out of curiosity, who was your NB?

    ------------------------------
    Michelle Lott RAC
    Principal & Founder
    michelle@leanraqa.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 11-Oct-2019 05:30
    same question. This is useful for all of us to know what is coming

    ------------------------------
    Maud Giorgi
    QMS & RA Manager
    Lausanne
    Switzerland
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Notified Body availability

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 11-Oct-2019 08:45
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    LRQA


  • 7.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 15-Oct-2019 05:27
    It seems your question caused a lot of interest. I have summarized the options available when your Notified Body stops. 

    Options if your Notified Body stops.

    There are several manufacturers that call us regarding the situation with their Notified Body (NB). What we see happening is that NB's drop-off before or during the designation under the MDR. Consequence is that manufacturers have to search for a new NB. If this happens the following scenarios can apply:

    A) Rapid transfers

    1. If your Notified Body is ECM, there is a rapid transfer possibility to TUV Nord. All manufacturers have been informed in due time.

    2. If your Notified Body is UL, there is a rapid transfer to PCB. The manufacturers have been informed regarding this process.

    3. If your Notified Body is SGS UK, there is a transfer to SGS Belgium at least when your devices have the correct scope to be covered by SGS Belgium.

     

    B) Tri party dialogue:

    It is possible is that a manufacturer enters into a tri party dialogue with their current NB and their potential new NB. They discuss together the details on a transfer from the existing NB to the new. It is very important that both NB's agree (on paper) regarding the requirements in this transfer process. Also important to have an external outsider help to manage this process. We recently helped a manufacturer that was in the renewal process with a NB, and during the renewal the NB stopped. The manufacturer agreed with another NB to take over the certs. However, during the process the new NB required that the old NB should first renew the certificates. This requires a lot of back and forth between the Notified Bodies and the manufacturer. An external independent consultant is a good option since in most cases the Notified Bodies have concerns regarding specific documentation. As outsider we can maneuver between manufacturer and both Notified Bodies to clarify requirements and speed up the process.   

     

    C) Shepherding:

    For this option the manufacturer does not have any time left to change certs. The possibility is that the manufacturer selects a new NB and prepares contract with them. Due to time constraints the new NB cannot review technical documentation before the deadlines. There needs to be a transition period for this manufacturer to go from one NB to another. This should be arranged with the competent authority of the country where the legal manufacturer is located or, if the manufacturer is located outside the EU, where the Authorized Representative is located. The manufacturer (together with Authorized representative, if applicable) needs to do a formal request to the competent  Authority (CA). The CA will grant temporarily permission. The CA will ask for details to the manufacturer. Part of the details are to show that the manufacturer is in good standing, a check on vigilance data, a check on outstanding regulatory issues. Once the CA has reviewed these there will be a decision to shepherd for a longer period until the manufacturer has completed the process with the new NB and receives certificates from the new NB.

    There are a few considerations for this process:

    • No changes to the devices since the CA does not have the process to review those
    • CA's will accept these shepherding from each other based on informal NBOG agreement
    • No guarantees

     

    D) Start from scratch

    If none of the above options can be used, the manufacturer needs to start from scratch with a new NB. The new NB will ask for technical documentation and will start the review process. Before certificates are issued the process  It will be hard to find a NB that will accept new customers for the MDD. There are 2 of which we are aware, those are ECM Italy and Szutest in Turkey. To help for MDD certificates they will charge additional costs on top of the normal costs. There is one option that is a practical approach while waiting on the new NB reviewing the technical documentation. To overcome the gap from expired certs to the new certs (either MDD or MDR) manufacturers can build inventory and take care it is in the distribution channel.

    Please contact me for support.



    ------------------------------
    QserveGroup
    martin.de.bruin@qservegroup.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 15-Oct-2019 11:48
    Edited by Julie Omohundro 15-Oct-2019 12:36
    Martin, this is an excellent summary of options potentially available to manufacturers who are still struggling with the transition, thanks.

    Companies should also keep in mind that there is a difference between what the regulation allows and what reality allows.  Many manufacturers have been under the impression that they could rely on their MDD certifications for any devices for which they could forego design changes. They did not realize that this works only for as long as you have an NB willing to continue as your MDD certifying body.

    I don't know the gory details, but I think many former LRQA customers recently learned a lot about the practical side of rapid transfers.

    I think many companies still don't fully appreciate the difference between regulation by a government agency like FDA and engaging a notified body, which is a business  FDA is legally required to accept and review submissions, NBs are not required to accept your business at all.  Where FDA is under strong pressure to revew submissions within a certain number of days, NBs are only under pressure to fulfill requirements that are specified in their contracts with their clients, and I know from personal experience that contractual pressure is often minimally effective.

    The fact that an NB agrees to take you on as a client does not say anything about when it will get around to serving you, nor does it preclude it from changing its mind later.  That needs to be spelled out in your contractual agreement.  Nothing can prevent it from getting out of the business of being a notified body, but contractual language might still be able to address the consequences of that decision.

    At this point, if your company is not solidly on track to transition to the MDR, or circumstances arise that throw it off track between now and May 2020, my first suggestion is for its management to sit down and take a hard look at each of its products and the value they bring to the company by being on the EU market, what may be involved in getting them through the transition, and also what value is likely to be realized from keeping them on the EU market post-transition

    The bar has been raised, and I think some companies are too busy struggling with the transition to have looked past it.  Some will invest time and resources to get products through the transition, only to discover that, due to additional regulatory burdens of the new regulations, it no longer makes business sense to keep them on the EU market. Conversely, some may give up on some products because the short-term investment required to get them through the transition strikes them as exorbitant, but the longer term ROI more than justifies the investment (especially if some of their competitor's products don't make it out the other side).



    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Mebane, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 09-Oct-2019 17:27
    Best wishes. It is awful that you are just hearing about this now.

    Does anyone know if the EC Commission could be approached in cases like this?

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    Corey Jaseph RAC
    Director of Regulatory Affairs
    South Jordan UT
    United States
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  • 10.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 10-Oct-2019 09:30
    I have a number of clients that were let down by TUV SUD this week due to 'capacity' issues. I posted on Linked In to see if anyone knew of NB's taking on clients for MDD transfers. If this is your situaiton i had responses for the following NB's 
    - TUV Rheinland
    - SGS - they contacted me directly which is a positive 
    - ECM in Italy
    - IMQ
    As well as some smaller less well known ones too. Feel free to connect on LinkedIn and chck out the responses. 

    Good luck with finding another NB

    ------------------------------
    Leeanne Baker
    Managing Director
    Banbury
    United Kingdom
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  • 11.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 10-Oct-2019 14:19
    This is very disappointing to hear.  My first guess would be that Business Development made promises beyond that which the organization could deliver, [possibly due to financial incentive to book clients without penalty for overbooking.  It leaves me wondering if the deciders at TUV Sud considered the potential long-term consequences of reneging on these commitments.  If so, this could be a sign that TUV Sud thinks it now has all the work it will be able to handle for as far as the eye can see.

    Corey, so far no one has ever contradicted me when I have stated that, as far as I know, no notified body is obligated to take you on as a client, and, perhaps more important, there is nothing in the EU framework that guarantees you will get a notified body just because you want one. If the latter statement is correct, then it suggests that the EC might not care.  On the other hand, it could decide that it doesn't need the bad PR, so it might step in, regardless.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Mebane, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 11-Oct-2019 01:38
    Simple truth - far too few Notified Bodies (so far only 4 designated compared to 40+ current under MDD) with the entire European inventory required to be re-certified the workload is impossible

    Result - Typical waiting times for new clients are well over 12 months no matter which notified body you approach.

    Also, giuven the proximity of the end of transition deadline (May 2020), almost all Notified Bodies have now ceased accepting any new work to certify under MDD - so that is unlikely to be a temporary solution.

    The only choice you have is to approach as many Notified Bodies as you can and see who can take you on - and then wait in line.  Note that if you approach one outside of those already designated you need to ask them directly:

    • Have they applied for designation?
    • Does their applicaiton cover your devices?
    • Have they been inspected yet?
    • When do they anticipate being Designated (and note that is only their estimate - some NBs have given up after not being able to resolve inspection NCs).

    It's all a mess sadly.

    ------------------------------
    Arthur Brandwood PhD FRAPS
    Director and Principal Consultant
    Brandwood CKC
    Sydney, Australia
    Arthur.brandwood@brandwoodckc.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 12-Oct-2019 20:03

    Continued reliance on Notified Bodies – rather than a centralized regulatory agency for Medical Devices, similar to the European Medicines Agency – has obviously not achieved the desired results hoped for by the EU member states and industry.  The concept of competition amongst Notified Bodies driving improvements in performance, when NBs are paid for by manufacturers, is tacit approval for incentivization of commercial considerations.  But placing the blame for a lack of readiness ahead of the 26 May 2020 deadline largely on the NBs is unfair when delays exist right across the landscape, including with Eudamed, harmonized standards, common specifications, etc.  There have been calls, from within the EU member states as well, to effectively allow existing medical devices cleared under the MDD to remain outside the new rules until at least 2024. While this exemption was intended to be used only for MDD cleared devices that have not undergone changes in design or intended use, or to devices that are re-classified to a higher risk classification under the MDR, the lack of readiness could result in disruption and shortages of other devices as well.  So yes, it's all a mess sadly, and the problem lies squarely at the doorstep of the European Commission. 



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    Homi Dalal RAC
    Regulatory Affairs Leader
    Christchurch
    New Zealand
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  • 14.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 15-Oct-2019 10:19
    Has anyone else considered going to another Auditing Organization for the MDSAP that is not currently bogged down with EU MDR certification and auditing?

    Was wondering what the pros and cons were of separating suppliers for these 2 activities. There's no requirement that I know of that you have to use the same organization for both. One client just received an e-mail from their EU MDR authorized NB that there may be delays with the MDSAP audits and priorities would be evaluated. That's not saying much with a December 31, 2019 Health Canada deadline coming up.

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    John Minier, RAC
    Consultant, Principal
    john@johnminier.com
    (914) 850-4432
    Highland Mills, NY
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 15-Oct-2019 13:28
    Edited by Julie Omohundro 15-Oct-2019 13:36

    John, I read a discussion of this topic a few months back.  Probably in the Forum, but maybe on LinkedIn or Elsmar.  Not sure what you might search for to find it here.  My best recollection is that you are correct, no requirement to use the same organization for both, and some companies have already pursued this path.

    As for downsides, some people thought the NB companies wouldn't like it, and this could be reflected in their MDR service.  I think a more substantive concern is that some companies that offer MDSAP/ISO 13485 certification, but not MDR certification, may be  general-purpose QMS certifying bodies, and might not be as strong on MDSAP/ISO 13485 as an NB company, which may be more heavily involved in medical devices.  As a result, the NB might have some legitimate issues with some aspects of your QMS, certified or not.  Or it could just be vindictive. Not clear how you would be able to tell the difference, really, except that you know your QMS is perfect, so any criticism from your NB must be based in petulance. 

    It could also be that your NB (or individual NB auditor) isn't that swift, and therefore has issues which, while sincere, are not actually legitimate.  The same auditor would probably be less likely take issue with a QMS certified by their own company, even if they thought an issue was there.

    All that said, if it looked like the NB company wasn't going to get to your QMS certification any time soon, I'd definitely be looking at other sources.



    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Mebane, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 15-Oct-2019 17:39
    Edited by Arthur Brandwood 15-Oct-2019 17:40
    John, 

    You can only get an MDSAP from one of the 13 designated MDSAP Auditing Organisations.  These are essentially the same organisations that were CMDCAS registrars and they are all (except one - SAI Global) Notified Bodies.  That said, two of them (LRQA and UL) have since given up on MDR designation, but are still functioning under MDD.  

    (Strictly speaking they are separate entities, but all under the same corporate umbrella).

    SO it's not an option to go somewhere else for an MDSAP/ISO13485.

    Also in Europe (and in most other jurisdictions that recognise CE certification, e.g. Australia), the ISO 13485 usually has to come from a Notified Body.

    Now if you are using sub-contractors who are not themselves Legal Manufacturers in the European sense (See MDR 2017/745 Article 1(30)), then you may have ISO 13485 from another auditing body.  That then raises the questions of vendor controls required..  Generally if the subcontractor has an ISO 13485 from another Notified Body, then their certification alone will usually be accepted as sufficient evidence of compliance.  If it's from another source, then expect the Notified Body to require some level of additional control, depending on the risks involved.

    Arthur

    ------------------------------
    Arthur Brandwood PhD FRAPS
    Director and Principal Consultant
    Brandwood CKC
    Sydney, Australia
    Arthur.brandwood@brandwoodckc.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 15-Oct-2019 18:42
    Arthur, thanks for this more detailed (and reliable!) information.

    To clarify, it sounds like SAI Global, LRQA, and UL are designed MDSAP auditing oganizations, one of whom (SAI Global) has never been a Notified Body, and therefore is not caught up in the current transition.  The other two were Notified Bodies under the MDD, but will not continue as Notified Bodies under the MDR, so they may be involved in some MDD wrap up activities, but are not going to be swamped with MDR transitions.

    If I understand this correctly, it seems to me that actually IS an option to go to one of these organizations for MDSAP/ISO 13485, unless they have indicated that they are discontinuing their QMS certification activities?

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Mebane, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Notified Body availability

    Posted 15-Oct-2019 20:22
    Yes that's right Julie, and from memory (I haven't checked) I think LRQA said in theor annouuncement of ceasing to be a notified body that they are continuing as an ISO 13485 and MDSAP auditor.

    ------------------------------
    Arthur Brandwood PhD FRAPS
    Director and Principal Consultant
    Brandwood CKC
    Sydney, Australia
    Arthur.brandwood@brandwoodckc.com
    ------------------------------