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RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

  • 1.  RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 10-Mar-2017 03:34
    Hi everyone,

    I had couple of conversations with my colleagues, which are partly already RAPS members, and also with people from my regulatory networks e.g. Notified Bodies, SPECTARIS, DKE, consultants to name a few.  

    We all discussed about RAC application.  

    BUT as the RAC model is still covering both – medical devices and pharmaceuticals, a lot of my contacts will/cannot apply. Why?  

    All, as well as myself, are wondering why the RAC is not subdivided into RAC Pharmaceuticals and RAC Medical Devices.   The RAPS training program is already subdivided into this senseful manner – having the choice of going for the RAC program specialized into the pharma sector, the medical device sector or choosing both as ‚Dual‘.  

    We really strongly recommend to also implement this subdivision within the RAC, as both areas are very complex and a lot of people do not have the educational background to cover pharma AND medical devices.  

    Nevertheless, people would definetely like to show and share their professional knowledge by holding an independant proofed certification!  

    Due to this fact, even you got your RAC to current approach, you’ll not be able to get a specialist e.g. within pharma sector when you have your initial education and further experience within medical devices.

    I communicated with RAPS about this Topic/Status/demand and they will take it into internal discussions but I personally do not expect RAPS to Change the current Approach.

    Maybe we can emphazise as a community the need having a sperated RAC to get more RegAffairs professionals satisfied applying for a RAC!


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    Kind Regards, André

    ------------------------------
    André Hülsbusch
    Regional QA/RA Specialist, Central Europe

    Germany
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 10-Mar-2017 19:23
    RA professionals have given this feedback to RAPS since the RAC was first introduced.  I think if it was open to this suggestion, it would have taken it by now.

    As for why they were combined in the first place, I could only speculate, and I'd prefer not to.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 11-Mar-2017 08:04
    I have had my RAC from the early 2000s and my exam covered both medical devices and pharmaceuticals and some international aspects. I will not limit my credentials to one or the other, especially as I have registered both types of products globally for over 20 years.

    RAPS tried to "give me" a honrary base of "U.S." to my RAC profile and I told them.I would not accept that change because for a client it appears limiting, as if that is all my RAC represents. 

    Perhaps going forward some may want the distinction but it will limit your opportunities if you add this restrion when you have broader practical experience.


    Ginger Cantor, MBA, RAC
    Centaur Consulting LLC
    715-307-1850







  • 4.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 11-Mar-2017 13:39
    As area of expertise grow in the field, then it needs to be subdivided for more fruitful outcome. It should be considered like BS, MS and Ph.D. course work. An individual can more contribute with specific field, as they have hand on experience with the field. If we compare the regulations just before 15 years and now is more detailed and stringent based on knowledge, past experience, future market requirements and public health.

    I completely agree with Julie that might be when RAC was introduced at that time it was not considered by RAPS, might be it was not expected the tremendous growth of the regulatory field and regulatory bodies.

    Actually RAPS should make short survey of all members on this topic - RAC - Pharmaceuticals, RAC - Medical Devices and RAC - Pharmaceuticals & Medical Devices.


    ------------------------------
    Gaurang Bhavsar
    Edison NJ
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 08:59
    Passing the RAC exam tells me someone has some basic understanding at most things regulatory in a particular jurisdiction, but that's it. I think there is some benefit to that, but in the end, even a generalist RA professional is either a drugs, a food, cosmetics, or device professional - apologies to those mentioned.  If someone were to present themselves as a knowledgeable professional in any more than just one of the domains, eg "I can do devices just as well as I can do drugs", or any other combination, I would just nod politely and move on to the next candidate with the firm belief, rightly or wrongly, that person probably does neither well.

    ------------------------------
    Heimo Scheer PhD
    Vice President, Regulatory Affairs
    Celerion
    Somerville MA
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 14-Mar-2017 00:28
    Heimo, that's what I hear from most experienced RA professionals.

    I will add that, after the sub-prime disaster, I also thought it helped to distinguish between The Aspiring who were legitimately interested in RA from those who had developed a sudden "passion" for RA without knowing much more about it than it was a area of projected job growth.

    I allow for the possibility that there may be some areas of RA that are suited to a generalist, but by and large, I'm inclined to agree that RA is a specialized profession.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 11-Mar-2017 07:08
    André

    I think you bring up a good point.

    By combining pharmaceuticals, biologics, and devices, I think that RAPS has created a US RAC which proves that a candidate is good at passing a test, but the body of knowledge is such that it doesn't really equip a device regulatory professional for the job market.

    The reality for a device professional working in the US is that they are expected to understand FDA QSR, ISO 13485, and world-wide as well as US submissions and compliance. Breaking down the RAC according to geography as opposed to type of medical product may not be the best way to help members. Also I have never understood why reimbursement strategy and HCPCS codes are not part of the tools that a device regulatory professional should be expected to be familiar with.

    Maybe this is something RAPS could tackle one of these years - survey job postings and create a corresponding body of knowledge?

    ------------------------------
    Jean Bigoney PHD, RAC
    Managing Member
    Nu Device Consulting LLC
    Murphy NC
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 12-Mar-2017 15:39
    The RAC was originally, and still is, evidence of knowledge across the entire Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act.

    In my opinion, the breakdown is the evidence of application of the knowledge. Too many receive their RAC as part of a program, and do not have the demonstrated hands on knowledge.

    There are also many of us who's careers have spanned many fields, in part because of what we learned studying for RAC, in any geography.

    The RAC has gone from being a highly coveted professional designation to a check mark on a job application. The prestige of passing one, or more, RAC credentials needs to be elevated to where it belongs.

    If Pharma and Devices are broken out, what would be your plan for Cosmetics, Biologics, in vitro Diagnostics, and food products?

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 9.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 12-Mar-2017 21:26
    The RAC is evidence of having passed an exam once upon a time, paid a renewal fee every three years, and claimed to have participated in enough of some kinds of activity over that period (including liking RAPS on Facebook) to have earned a certain number of recertification points.

    It has gone the way professional credentials always go, sooner or later.  Once up on a time a high school diploma was highly coveted, then an undergraduate degree, and now the world is full of PhDs, MDs, and JDs.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 12:58
    Hi Julie,

    In response to your earlier comment about recertifying, I am unaware of any way in which some can gain credit through 'liking something on Facebook'. I was wondering if you would be able to clarify where you had seen this advertised as a possibility for recertification credits. It is certainly not listed in the RAC Recertification Guide, which gives the full list of activities that can be undertaken for credit.

    Thanks in advance,

    Pete Etchells
    RAC Program Manager    

    ------------------------------
    Pete Etchells
    Rockville MD
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 18:43

    What I was referring to is under Volunteer/Opportunities:

    https://connect.raps.org/volunteeropportunities/opportunities-list-public

    I'm traveling right now with poor connectivity.  My understanding is that the points referenced on this list are RAC points, but if you find out otherwise, I'd be interested (relieved?) to know...



    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 14-Mar-2017 10:41
    Hi Julie,

    Thank you for responding and sending the link.The "points" in the link you point to are volunteer "points" that relate to membership interactions and community engagement for RAPS membership. RAC recertification is measured in "credits" and this is a separate process that is outlined in the RAC Recertification Guide. Some volunteering activities do also earn credits per the RAC Recertification Guide - such as serving on a committee or board of a profession association relevant to the regulatory profession.  

    So I do understand where the confusion might arise between the two systems, but can assure you that liking something on Facebook will not be considered an activity suitable for demonstrating continued knowledge and competency in regulatory that the RAC program is designed to demonstrate.

    In the meantime I will discuss the volunteer points system with membership to make sure we are doing what we can to avoid any further confusion between these points and RAC credits.

    Regards,

    ------------------------------
    Pete Etchells
    Rockville MD
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 14-Mar-2017 18:26
    Pete, I appreciate you clarifying this,.  I'm traveling without great internet access so not able to investigate for myself. I will try to take a look when I get home to see if it might be made clearer somehow.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 03:36
    Hi all,

    thanks for all the replies on this - oviously contoverse discussed Topic.

    Well I do agree that holding a Diploma, Phd, Master etc. shows for sure the outcome of a longer education someone went through. And sure it does not show deeper experience, as the hands on is missing in our context.

    Also I absolutely agree that this Approach of having a combined RAC was Kind of senseful, as the fields were not that complex as nowadays!

    Sorry not mentioned the biologics, IVDs, Cosmetics and food products, too. Those fileds for sure should also be considered in our discussion. I cannot give a rating on the complexity of those. At least for IVD I know that they are as complex as MDs.

    Therefore RAPS should consider to start a Survey, as mentioned, to ensure the current approach is still suitable for the needs of RegAffairs Pro's.

    And again I'd like to hghlight the fact that holding the RAC, at least in Germany, would not potentially increase the opportunity to get a Job in an area, where you cannot show evidence of deeper knowledge. 
    As an example -  when someone with a biological education and work experience would like to start as a RegAffairs Pro within a Company producing active medical devices.

    For sure RAC shows you're able to to work within the RegAffairs fields and maybe are also able to adapt but anyway, the technical education and experience is missing.

    So RAPS, please start a Survey to evaluate the community needs/whishes and build a corresponding body of knowledge.




    ------------------------------
    André Hülsbusch
    Regional QA/RA Specialist, Central Europe

    Germany
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 14-Mar-2017 10:01
    The world is changing.  I think that wanting to isolate the pharma, bio, and device in the RAC is problematic.  Today we are having to manage the regulatory aspects of combination products, which requires a knowledge and understanding of the various regulatory requirements of each of the components of healthcare products.  

    I think that separating the three into their own certifications only leads to each thinking the other area just is not as good (difficult, or other term) as mine.  We are better served to have an understanding of the regulatory aspects of each of the healthcare regulatory areas as we increasing intersect.

    I received my RAC in 1994 and was required to understand both device and pharma regulations to get the certification.  I was abler to do so without much difficulty and it has helped me over the years understand the regulatory environments of all three areas to my benefit (and my clients).

    ------------------------------
    Edwin Bills RAC, MA
    Principal Consultant
    ELB Consulting
    Overland Park KS
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 08:21
    Hello Andre,

    I agree with you.  Having sat for the EU RAC twice to only come short by 5 points the first time and 4 points the second time was very frustrating to say the least. I have been in the medical device field for 9 years now and have no desire to move to the pharma world.  Would love to see this split into med device and pharma!

    Thanks for the commentary!
    Jennifer Bonacci
    Regulatory Affairs Specialist

    ------------------------------
    Jennifer Bonacci
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 12:54
    Hello All ,

    This is a fascinating discussion and indeed is certainly something that the RAC program and the RAC board looks at on a regular basis. As you may be aware the RAC program was originally set up over 25 years ago as one general regulatory exam and has since grown to the 4 regionally based exams that are available today.  

    It is interesting that surveying has been mentioned, as we are planning some surveying efforts to go into effect across the next few months, looking at a number of items within the RAC program. And while I cannot make any predictions regarding the future direction of the RAC program, I can assure you that we will be looking to make the RAC program as valid and relevant as we can, and that it will take into effect the state of the industry as best we can.

    I would also note that the RAC program is not simply the exam. The RAC designation demonstrates continued professional development and up to date industry knowledge through the ongoing recertification requirements. A wide scope of activities earn credit for recertification, meaning that topics such as project management, leadership and business skills can all be incorporated into recertification. This broad scope means that the RAC can stay relevant as regulatory individuals advance through their careers. All recertification requirements can be found in the Recertification Guide

    Should anyone need for any further information on the RAC program please email me on petchells@raps.org

    Best,

    Pete Etchells
    RAC Program Manager    

    ------------------------------
    Pete Etchells
    Rockville MD
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 14:45
    Hi Pete,

    thanks for your Input on this discussion topic!

    I'm happy to see the involvement by someone from RAC Management Team.

    True there are the regionally based exams available but nevertheless, they cover all different types of products.

    I'm curious about the outcome of the discussions you'll have within the board. Sure, if you Need maybe some further thoughts or Support for these discussions, let me know. I'm happy to provide Support and Input as far as possible.

    Regards, André

    ------------------------------
    André Hülsbusch
    Regional QA/RA Specialist, Central Europe

    Germany
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 18:47
    The link between recerification and a demonstration of up to date industry knowledge is pretty tenuous, IMO.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 17-Mar-2017 18:28
    Hi Peter,

    Please keep us up to date with the RAC surveying efforts. Would love to see what people who haven't taken the RAC have to say, regulatory professionals from various industries like Food, Drug, Medical Devices, Biologics, Cosmetics, or what hiring managers from these industries have to say. I love RAPS and what it has done and continuing to do for the regulatory profession.

    Much appreciated,

    ------------------------------
    Clarisa Tate
    VP of Product Development and Regulatory Affairs
    Medical Devices, RA/QA/Engineering
    Bay Area, CA
    USA
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 13-Mar-2017 13:54
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    My company handles medical device.  However, we are moving toward Biologics IVD combination product.  Because of that my study experience for RAC US is working very well on my company's future products. 
    Besides that, if you are working on a Ph.D. degree, you need to study more than just the area you are working on, and that is a part of Ph.D.'s credential.   This is just my opinion: RAC US should stay covering all areas to value the RAC credential more.


  • 22.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 13-Mar-2017 19:22

    Of course there are RA professionals who need to know more than one area of regulatory, but there is no reason that "area" should be itnereprested as "product type." it can refer to jurisdiction or to regulations applicable to manufacturing verus clinical versus laboratory versus marketing, or to pre- versus postmarketing.    No one is going to argue that there are no RA professionals who don't need to know both pharma and devices.  There are also those who need to know US, EU, and China.  That's no more  justification for a RAC that includes these three jurisdictions, than the fact that some RA professionals need to know both pharma and device regulations is a justification for a RAC that includes both product types.

    If you start with a device and expand to a combo product, then at that point you would pursue a pharma certification...just like now, when an RA professional who got US certification for a US manufacturer, and then their employer wanted to start marketing in the EU, they would then pursue the EU exam.  If you begin with a startup that grows up to be a manufacturers, you could start with a RAC (Premarket) and later add a RAC (Postmarket).

    As for the need to study more than just the area you are working in, this criteria can be met just as easily by studying pharma OR device regulations in different juridictions, even though you are not working in all jurisdictions, as by studying RA in all product areas, even though you are not working in all product areas.



    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 14-Mar-2017 10:35
    Edited by Andrea Chamblee 14-Mar-2017 10:41
    I heartily agree with Edwin and Pete. The RAC indicates a body of knowledge (and follow up activities) across the profession. If you don't know the history and regulation across product lines, you have no context for your own product regulation. For example,
    • Every product type uses the concept of grandfathering, from new dietary agreements in food, substantial equivalence in devices and tobacco, and monographs in drugs. 
    • More products trigger user fees and that will only increase across product lines.
    • Safety and efficacy evaluations and comparative studies aren't limited to your drug, since devices and dietary supplements may also provide competing, adjunct, or confounding factors; and they can compete with your product, legally and illegally.
    • You need to know jurisdictional issues, which cross product lines.
    • You need to know what other agencies are doing in the field for all product types: is FTC treating OTC or dietary supplement claims more stringently than FDA can treat your drug claim? How about HHS OIG's corporate integrity agreements?
    • Pilots in one FDA center are often reintegrated into other centers; for example User Fees in CDER are now charged in CTP, and CDRH, and by all accounts, coming to CFSAN. "Humanitarian" devices are now "orphans" in CDER.
    The RAC is not just a certification that you are an expert at the filing expectations, or that you can submit an FAR in record time. These are important skills worthy of recognition. But if you aren't familiar with all these things, you may certainly be a drug professional, or a device professional, but you are not a Regulatory Professional. The RAC certification is supposed to be difficult, rare, and meaningful.

    ------------------------------
    Andrea Chamblee Esq., RAC, FRAPS

    This information and views expressed are provided in my capacity as an FDA and compliance professor at Johns Hopkins and George Washington universities, and do not necessarily represent the official views of the agency or the United States. Consult the Agency for an official position.

    Silver Spring MD
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 15-Mar-2017 04:30
    Nice to observe the really active discussion on this Topic!

    I totally agree on the fact mentioned couple of times within this thread that we have also combined products and if handling those, you'll Need to have " a full Picture" of applicable regulatory framework.

    The fundamentials of each area are useful to get a good insight. But having the Areas seperated available allows everybody to chosse for their Needs, as it is already done for RAPS program.

    I don't see Problems with this approach, as the Areas will still remain available but not summarized under one certification umbrella.

    The knowledge a person does have under each of the areas we have in the RegAffairs filed, will be recognized passing any of the RAC.

    Let's have a look to another area:

    Notified Bodies do have employees, performing product testing, Audits, technical file reviews etc. All Need to Show evidence that they are qualified to perfom those activities. Before they are allowed to do so, the NB will check their experiences and education.

    Taking into account that there are many technologies within the medical device sector, the technical experts running e.g. the product testing are not able/allowed to perform tests on all technologies available, as they do not have the experience and/or proven skills. The level of competencies is checked by the accreditation bodies to ensure that the experts do have the knowledge they need for related technologies.

    Nevertheless, they for sure can develop themselves to cover more areas and not staying on a specific level of knowledge. That's the same with us - if we are already experienced and have the right level of knowledge, we can apply for the RAC in in this field and extend the RAC later, as needed and possible.


    ------------------------------
    André Hülsbusch
    Regional QA/RA Specialist, Central Europe

    Germany
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 16-Mar-2017 18:22

    Having been in medical device industry for more than 15 years in various roles in engineering, manufacturing, QA, RA, product development, etc. I believe that Andre, Julie, and Heimo have very good points they are making.

    1. RAPS do listen and the world IS changing. Why not RAC?
    It is 2017, FDA has made lots of changes throughout the years. EU has changed it's MDR, ASEAN is implementing a lot of stuff, Brazil, etc. RAPS is a great professional organization and I believe that they do care about this discussion about RAC. Pete's presence here certainly makes you think they’re listening to our views. More and more experienced professionals and hiring managers do believe that the RAC has to adapt and change (for example, addition of 2 years’ experience before you can take it).  So why not separation of areas of product expertise.

    2. RAC (product specialization here) is complementary to the current scheme which is basically RAC (regional specialization)
    I don't believe anyone is saying that the current RAC US or RAC EU disappears. It only makes sense that there would be a product categorization as well to specify RAC Food, RAC Pharma, RAC Biologics, RAC Cosmetics, RAC Medical Devices.

    To say that people who completed RAC US and have a RAC after their name also knows international regs doesn't compute.

    To say that RAC US holders are regulatory professionals but not people who focus on medical device only, doesn't add up. 

    Copying what I heard from someone, do we not agree that working with a professional who has a knowledge 1/2 km wide and 1 km deep is in most cases more useful than those who have knowledge 1 km wide and 1 m deep? For example, a RAC Medical Device says this person knows US regs on medical devices, EU MDR, CMDR, etc. Wouldn't you consider this person a Regulatory Professional? Hiring companies certainly will. Regulatory is a kind of combo science and law discipline which means it can specialize in various areas. So why not RAC.

    3. Addition of specializations will not diminish RAC's credibility and increase RAPS' ability to help regulatory professionals all over the world
    ASQ have multiple certificates in various fields within Quality. Lawyers have specialization, not just in type of law but in the region or state they practice at. Same with doctors: we have hospitalists, cardiovascular surgeons, pediatrician, etc. Engineering has mechanical, biomedical, electrical, etc.

    Why not regulatory? This is already happening whether RAPS members and RAC holders want to acknowledge it or not. Many universities now offer Master of Science in a particular regulatory field, MS RA Food, MS RA drugs and devices, etc. You can actually say that the focus is actually product-specific and regulatory function-specific rather than region-specific like what RAC currently is.

     

    Conclusion
    I want us all to empower the profession. This means we need RAPS to help us adapt the RAC for various needs.  I will say that again: RAC should be adopted to various NEEDS of the industries it touches. This will only empower the usefulness of RAPS and help everyone understands that the definition of a regulatory professional should match what the industry needs.



    ------------------------------
    Clarisa Tate
    Medical Devices, RA/QA/Engineering
    Bay Area, CA
    USA
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 17-Mar-2017 03:50
    Clarisa,

    thanks a lot for your comments.

    You really summarized our "changing view" as well as the changing RegAffairs fields in a pretty good and clear way. As you said, the changing RegAffairs fields and related industry should be in the Focus to adopt RAC accordingly. This will definetely not Impact the credibility of RAC over all.

    And I also like to emphasise that your conclusion is exactly, what I'm looking for.


    ------------------------------
    André Hülsbusch
    Regional QA/RA Specialist, Central Europe

    Germany
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 17-Mar-2017 10:32
    Interesting being away for a few days and reading through this entire thread. My take is a bit different. There seems to be a lot of "I only want to know what I need to know for my job" tied to what is requested of the RAC. This attitude seems to have become more prevalent these days, for some reason I don't understand. But anyway, that is fine if your only goal is supporting a job or series of jobs.

    I view the RAC differently. As I understand the background, it was intended to be the Regulatory profession's equivalent of the Professional Engineering certification (yes I am an engineer, no I am not  PE). The PE process expects you to have master the basics of all the "fundamental" engineering specialties, such as mechanical, electrical etc. Then there is an "advanced" section where you are supposed to demonstrate a deeper expertise in your area of specialty. There is also a "qualifying level" which can be obtained via a test. However, the full "Professional Engineer" can only be gained after several years of experience. IMO, the RAC should have something similar to this system. The PE certification is certainly regarded as a "high level" certification - and I am not at all convinced that little "specialized" RAC certifications would come even close.

    If this type of system was in place, I would be more likely to view the certification as a very important resume item. If there were "specialized" ones, I would certainly not. The people I want to hire for my RA roles are those who value continuous learning, those who want to understand how other regions/specialties are regulated (or do risk management or do quality activities) and bring the "best practices" into our efforts, those who will be prepared for a future combo product, change in a regions regulations, those who can read any regulation and start to understand how we can comply with it in a way that fits the business. This also means understanding related areas like reimbursement, export controls etc etc.

    The more limited the RAC certifcation, the less value it provides as a hiring executive trying to build a top performing organization. Today, the certifications are already limited enough by the geography focus that I have to get a lot of this from interviews and other research (because yes, people can and do become experts at this stuff without any certification at all, just like I have hired some great engineers without a PE). Further segmenting it will make it even less valuable as a credential, though maybe easier to have something to stick on a resume or LinkedIn profile.

    As a side note, it is amazing how much I have used the info I learned on generic drug requirements in order to get my RAC. I have never worked in generics, but it has come up over and over both professionally (at one point being part of a device company owned by a drug company) and personally (nothing like being allergic to an excipient in a generic the pharmacist was trying to convince me was "identical").

    g-

    ------------------------------
    Ginger Glaser RAC
    Vice-President, Quality and Regulatory Affairs
    Maplewood MN
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 17-Mar-2017 18:01
    Hi Ginger,
    I've seen you around, your posts, and I respect your thoughts.  I'd like to reply to you to make some points regarding your post to answer some of your questions as well as thank you for some points you've made which further strengthens some positions others have posted here like Andre and I regarding RAC. Please know that these are just my thoughts and no offense is intended. We are regulatory professionals and are passionate about what we do, even when making philosophical arguments :).

    1. There seems to be a lot of "I only want to know what I need to know for my job" tied to what is requested of the RAC. People who say this is trying to highlight the point that they want to specialize just as CURRENTLY RAC is specialized per region (US exam ...). It is a job need, for a changing world, to show their employers they know what they are talking about regardless of what their MS or BS said they have taken because they did study and learn and worked hard in that particular field to become a regulatory professional regardless of background. I've known many good regulatory specialists who has a Bachelors in unrelated X but are wonderful regulatory professionals who could use a credential that matches what they've learned. We are in a new world of self-promotion, independent learning, etc. after all.
    2. It was intended to be the Regulatory profession's equivalent of the Professional Engineering certification.  As many here have said, RAC is strictly for fundamentals, so it is NOT a higher level certification like PE. So why do you think there is a push-back to have certifications in specialization in product rather than region? Why not have fundamentals of US, EU, Australia, Japan, global regulations in Food or Medical Devices, etc.?
    3. If this type of system was in place [PE], I would be more likely to view the certification as a very important resume item. I agree with you that RAC's reputation will change if it has a higher level version similar to PE. There should be actual submissions of work, years of experience, interview by the 'RAC board', etc. for me to view this to a similar level.
    4. The more limited the RAC certifcation, the less value it provides as a hiring executive trying to build a top performing organization. Today, the certifications are already limited enough by the geography focus that I have to get a lot of this from interviews and other research (because yes, people can and do become experts at this stuff without any certification at all, just like I have hired some great engineers without a PE). 
      if you read my post, I made the same point that RAC is already being viewed as limited because it's separated per region. And you see that RAC isn't even required if you see a top-performing person who have learned and became an expert without any certification at all. So why limit it further? why only look at RAC on a regional basis? Andre and other folks here is NOT asking for specialty in drug regulation within EU only. They are actually talking about for example, Drug regulation in US, EU, Canada, Australia, etc. How is that any different than someone saying I know drugs, medical devices, and biologics in US only? How is that logic any different? If you're working for a medical device company, that company would probably (I know I do when I hire them) want someone who specializes in medical device and knows how to get the product through globally rather than only know US regulations. The separation is no different from a doctor specializing in cardiology or a lawyer specializing in criminal law. They are still doctors, they are still lawyers.  People who specialize in drugs for multiple regional regulations is still a regulatory professional just as much as someone who specialize in US regulations of medical products.
    5. As a side note, it is amazing how much I have used the info I learned on generic drug requirements in order to get my RAC. See #4 where a statement was made regarding people becoming experts without any certifications at all. I love reading and I know other regulations in other areas beyond healthcare products. To give you an idea of what type of person I am, I read several encyclopedia books that my grandmother owned as an 8 year old child for fun; she's a doctor so she encouraged it. I understand the thirst for knowledge. Most medical device courses do tackle combo products and same with drugs. In the US, IVDs and combo products are part of the medical device reg framework. So that should be included in the RAC exam for Medical Devices.

    The main point is, if RAC is limited already, then why are some folks here worried about expanding it? RAC for product specialization is a global expansion that works for the global market where everything is harmonizing... it is not a limitation. It is not greater or lesser than RAC specialized for a regulatory framework within a region.

    Just my thoughts and no offense intended. I always promote RAPS to anyone I know and I appreciate all members who come to the forum and provide their expert, educated opinions.

    ------------------------------
    Clarisa Tate
    VP of Product Development and Regulatory Affairs
    Medical Devices, RA/QA/Engineering
    Bay Area, CA
    USA
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 20-Mar-2017 10:53
    No offense taken - there are very few "right" answers in anything regulatory and robust discussion is often what leads to optimum results.

    Just to clarify one point, as part of your argument seems to be "the RAC is already split so why not split more or differently." I was not in favor of the original split, for the same reasons I am not in favor of additional splits. If you look at most highly respected professional credentials, be it medicine, law, engineering etc, there is always a base level credential that goes across the basic areas the profession covers. Then, at a higher level, there are specialized certifications. If RAPS really wants the RAC to be a highly regarded certification, I believe they need to head in a similar direction.

    g-

    ps - I doubt your friends who are great RA professionals with unrelated degrees really need a certification to show what they have learned in any specific area. Almost no one has a degree specific to regulatory, much less a given company products.It takes any decent hiring manager very little time to determine skill in a given specialization from a resume and an interview so it is unclear how the certification changing would make that much difference

    ------------------------------
    Ginger Glaser RAC
    Vice-President, Quality and Regulatory Affairs
    Maplewood MN
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 21-Mar-2017 14:19

    Ginger, I don't necessarily want to further segment the RAC; I am more in the camp of questioning the way it has been segmented.

    I would prefer a Pharma RAC and a Medical Device RAC, each of which covered regulation in ALL jurisdictions, rather than a US RAC and an EU RAC that covers both pharma and device regulation in a single jurisdiction.  I think RAPS later introduced the separate pharma and medical device certificate programs in an effort to respond to the feedback of many RAPS members who wanted something similar. If I were starting out today, I’d probably get the Device Certificate instead of any of the RACs, although I’m not sure it’s scope is as wide or deep as I would prefer.

    There are a number of credentialing models that can be considered.  Among MDs, there is the "fundamental" MD degree, which is frequently augmented by additional specialized credentials represented by abbreviations that can stretch out forever after an MD's name. I think this model might work well for the RAC, but preferably without the lengthy abbreviations.

    I fully appreciate your perspective on people wanting to know only that which they need to know to do their jobs. There is a flip side to that perspective, which is that you will only know that which you must learn in order to get credentialed. If someone wants to know about both pharmaceuticals and medical device regulation, or both US and EU regulation, there are plenty of ways to learn about regulations outside of studying for the RAC. I don’t think we can expect the RAC to serve as the end-all, be-all for anyone’s regulatory education, so that, if it doesn’t include pharma or doesn’t include the EU, it has robbed you of the opportunity to learn about regulation in those areas.




    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 17-Mar-2017 17:38
    I second everything Clarisa said.  I would also like to add the following comments in support of RAC separation:

    1) RAPS already recognizes the benefit/value of splitting up by discipline (med device, pharma, food., etc.) because that is what they usually do for the yearly convergence.  
    2) With the evolution of technology, a lot of regulated companies cater to the market worldwide.  Does it really make sense anymore to separate things by region?  My company ships to over 70 countries.
    3) I think a Regulatory professional who is well versed in a particular category (i.e. medical devices) over many different markets is a vastly more valuable asset to their company/team than someone who has a fundamental knowledge of all categories, but only for one region.  This is precisely why I cannot get my company to support me sitting for the RAC.  They do no see the value in me learning about pharma when we only manufacture medical devices. I bet they would se the value in a RAC Med Device certification though!

    ------------------------------
    Rene' Hardee
    Regulatory Affairs Specialist III
    Sun Nuclear Corporation
    Melbourne FL
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 14-Mar-2017 16:41
    Andre,

    We really strongly recommend to also implement this subdivision within the RAC....

    It was interesting to read your post.  

    RAPS publishes several books entitled "Fundamentals of..........................."

    RAC is based on Fundamentals.....of several areas....in regulatory affairs.  

    At one point, I didn't want to mention about my RAC because it is based on Fundamentals......

    My piece of advice: master fundamentals... and ask your colleagues to also master fundamentals....

    :-) :-)

    Thank you.

    s/ David
    ______________________________________________
    Dr. David Lim, Ph.D., RAC, ASQ-CQA 
    Phone (Toll-Free): 1-(800) 321-8567

    NOTICE: This communication (including any attachments) may contain privileged or confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this communication and/or shred the materials and any attachments and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or distribution of this communication, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.





  • 33.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 14-Mar-2017 18:46
    So, my take lways...

    In doubtful RAPS is open to reconsidering the RAC at this point, but if they ever do, I hope they will take a broad view at ALL the subareas of the profession by which the RAC could be combined or separated, rather than just product type or just jurisdiction or just operational area, and structure by what makes sense based on how RA is practiced across the regulated industries, not on anecdotals.

    A some people seem to confuse what the RAC actually represents with what they think it represents or should or is "supposed to" represent.

    People views of the RAC are often skewed strongly by whatever the exam covered (and what they were told about it) when they took the exam.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 21-Mar-2017 08:46
    OK folks, I'm going to jump in here (although I originally chose not to!) with some ideas.  First, let's be realistic, everyone in Regulatory has different experiences upon which to draw when things happen and determine how to manage them.  That said, I think we have already introduced "specialization" (to take Ginger's term I think) into the RAC with the individual tests for different jurisdictions (be it EU, US, etc.)  I can say when I took my attempt at the RAC a few years ago (was trying for US certification) almost the ENTIRE 100 questions (something like 68 of them - yes I counted!) were on devices for which I had little or no recent experience.  Almost NONE of the questions were on food or cosmetics.  So, let's be honest, on that test cycle at least the RAC really was about devices.  I'm not say we should eliminate the "generalist" RAC options (whether they be truly "global" or jurisdictional) but I do believe that we should be considering how these tests are handled.  I can tell you specifically, as someone in the OTC and cosmetics and food areas of Regulatory, I for one have decided that I won't bother spending the money to try to get my RAC again because of the prior experience with so much of the test being based on just one area of regulatory (admittedly it is probably a lot more "interesting" or "timely" than the areas I work in but still - is that really a "general knowledge" test when it covered so much of only one piece of the discipline we call Regulatory Affairs)?  If RAPS wants to have a generalist RAC then it should really be generalist.  There should be people from ALL areas of regulatory on the board deciding the questions and the questions should be meaningfully general.  Truthfully, I can tell you I have come up against some of the most difficult questions in the "easy" areas of RA - cosmetics and OTC - that had to really be understood and the answers truly cross-functionally vetted.

    Sorry, some people may disagree with me but to say that the RAC is based on a ground level knowledge of different areas of the industry is simply untrue and unsubstantiated and unsupportable as an argument in my personal opinion.

    ------------------------------
    Victor Mencarelli
    Director - Regulatory Affairs
    Hain Celestial Group
    United States
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 21-Mar-2017 12:32
    Dear Andre,

    Many professionals have shared their views and I was waiting for some opinions on hidden agenda.  I feel it is important for us to also consider the following.

    First, I agree and disagree with some of opinions shared in part. I can live with whatever RAPS offers as my views are generally chosen to be rather pragmatic.

    ONE big issue that we all have to seriously consider is fees.

    For example, as a non-member, current fee to sit for the exam (e.g., US RAC): $535 ($435 for the member).

    If it gets separated as US RAC (general), RAC (drugs), RAC (food), RAC (medical devices), etc.

    For each exam, it would be the same or similar: $435 for the member.

    If you want to have all RACs for the US, you would have to pay for $435 x 4 (e.g., four sub-divisions) instead of $435.

    Can you or your employer afford to paying all these fees four times more than just one fee? 

    If one needs to get only one RAC (devices) assuming it may/can be subdivided, the fee will be similar or the same as current fee ($435).

    I would rather retire!  :-)

    Thank you.

    s/ David
    ______________________________________________
    Dr. David Lim, Ph.D., RAC, ASQ-CQA 
    Phone (Toll-Free): 1-(800) 321-8567

    NOTICE: This communication (including any attachments) may contain privileged or confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this communication and/or shred the materials and any attachments and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or distribution of this communication, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.





  • 36.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 21-Mar-2017 14:42

    I'm not sure how well "hidden" this agenda might be, but of course the cost of what one is selling and the amount the market is willing to pay for it is always a key determinant.

    I myself don't know how much the "base" cost of any exam might be, or how much narrowing or broadening the scope of the exam (which could be different when one considers broadening the content versus increasing the number of questions) might reduce or increase the total cost of a particular exam.  RAPS is constrained in its options by this reality, but it's also true that sometimes some creative thinking can figure out a way to reach a goal within a challenging set of constraints.

    "If you want to have all RACs for the US, you would have to pay for $435 x 4 (e.g., four sub-divisions) instead of $435."  True.  It's also true that, right now, if you want to have all the RACs for pharma or all the RACs for medical devices, you have to pay $435 x 4 (e.g., four jurisdictional exams).  I think there are far more RA professionals whose careers would benefit from the latter than the former, especially the younger ones.



    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 21-Mar-2017 15:19
    Julie,

    Thanks for sharing your comments!

    About 10 years ago, I made 310 slides and helped over 100 professionals (most of them were lawyers) who were preparing to pass the Patent Bar Exam*.  I sold them for $30 per all slides on eBay.  Of course, I also passed the Patent Bar Exam. 

    *: 6 hours in two sessions (3 hrs each session). Each question is very very long. 

    It is $450 to sit for the patent bar exam. Once passed, there is no fee for your life time at least at this point.

    When I work with regulatory professionals, I felt some people invest in too much time just to pass the RAC exam.   In fact, many of them are too much focused on passing the exam instead of building/broadening/sharpening their knowledge.  Then after the exam, they tend to forget most of what they have studied (let's get real here). 

    I even created a seminar program to help others study and prepare for the RAC exam better. 

    RAC exams are too easy, not intense at all  compared to the Patent Bar Exam in my opinion. Yet, we are talking about separating them into subdivisions - good discussion but....

    David







  • 38.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 21-Mar-2017 17:08
    I'm inclined to agree, but I tend to see the RAC as being worth the effort to those who are looking to get into the profession and those who are very new to it  Many employers do not care how much knowledge you have, or perhaps I should say they don't want to have to exert the effort to find out what you know, or they themselves don't know what is needed, so they leave it to RAPS to figure that out.. No matter how much knowledge you have, if you have little no prior experience, you are likely to have trouble getting a job without a credential.

    However, there are now other choices that I think should serve this purpose equally well.  For example, if you know you want to work in either pharma or medical devices but not both, I would consider the RAPS pharma or medical device certificate rather than the RAC.  And there are now a number of college degree programs in RA.  I think some of these may be more helpful later in an RA career than the RAC.

    I will reiterate that the RAC is already subdivided--by jurisdiction, and that at least some of the people who are recommending a change are not recommending that it be further subdivided, but that be divided along different lines.

    ------------------------------
    Julie Omohundro, ex-RAC (US, GS), still an MBA
    Principal Consultant
    Class Three, LLC
    Durham, North Carolina, USA
    919-544-3366 (T)
    434-964-1614 (C)
    julie@class3devices.com
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 21-Mar-2017 17:23
    Julie,

    You are making good points!

    RAC serves for some good purposes.  Certificate programs also serve for some other good purposes. 

    Professionals should try to get one at least for obvious reasons but not too many!  

    Please be aware that in many cases, one's ability and qualification to get the job done well is irrelevant with the fact that you have RAC(s) or certificate(s).

    My favorite question/statement - "Are you ready, willing, and able to....?"

    Happy posting, Julie!

    D






  • 40.  RE: RAC split into medical devices and pharmaceuticals

    Posted 17-Oct-2018 07:19
    ​Hi everyone,

    as recently published, RAC for Drugs and Devices are offered now.

    I'm pretty happy to see this development and that RAPS listened to the community in this context. Thumbs up!

    Bestr Regards frm Germany, André

    ------------------------------
    André Hülsbusch
    Regional QA/RA Specialist, Central Europe

    Germany
    ------------------------------